The Mental Toughness to Overcoming Obstacles

Ed Aloe (00:03):

Welcome to The Real Estate Wealth Podcast, the show about how you can build wealth by investing in real estate. I'm your host, Ed Aloe, founder and CEO of CALCAP Advisors. I'll dive deep into multifamily investing in today's current market. I'll also help you acquire the knowledge and tools necessary to generate passive income for life through discussions with friends and experts in the industry.

(00:30):

Today I have the honor and privilege of speaking with Charlie Engle. Charlie is an ultramarathon runner and adventure athlete. He has competed in many endurance challenges, including the Badwater Ultramarathon, which bills itself as the most demanding and extreme running race on the planet. But he is probably best known for running 4,500 miles across the Sahara Desert. Matt Damon made a documentary about this called Running The Sahara. Charlie and two friends ran the equivalent of, get this, two marathons per day for 111 consecutive days without taking a break. He is a recovering addict and says his greatest challenge is the one he takes every day. Sobriety. Charlie's been clean and sober now since 1992. He is a sought-after motivational speaker and the author of the book Running Man. Charlie, welcome to The Real Estate Wealth Podcast. Did I get it all?

Charlie Engle (01:31):

That's all there is. It was great being here. I'll talk to you later.  Thanks for having me.

Ed Aloe (01:37):

Yeah, absolutely. You've had a very interesting life of really extreme highs and extreme lows. Can you give our listeners kind of a brief overview, in your words, of who Charlie Engle really is?

Charlie Engle (01:52):

For me, I grew up in North Carolina, and I went to the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, thinking I was pretty awesome. I got there and realized that there were 4,000 other freshmen with pretty much the exact same resume that I had when I went to college. The drinking age was still 18, and so I did find something in fact, Ed, that I was very good at in college, and that was drinking. It was also the early 80s and so as I call it, "the cocaine decade." I fell into this pattern of a lot of partying and while some of my friends were able to do that kind of thing and still go to class and get through college, and it was just a phase, that phase for me lasted over a decade. Throughout my 20s, I led every company I ever worked for in sales and I managed to look good on the outside and buy a house and have good cars.

(02:58):

On the inside I was numb and I used drugs and alcohol to continue that for me every day. I tried to quit. I tried hard to make changes in my life. I went to rehab and I went to church and I tried all kinds of things outside of me to get that pain, if you will, to go away. It just wouldn't. Then my first son was born, and I finally found a path to realizing that, quite simply, nobody was coming to save me and that I needed to make a decision to change my own life. And I did that and I started going to meetings and I started running. And both of those two things really turned my life around.

(03:50):

Ultimately, I ended up being, for a while at least, the top ultra-distance, long-distance runner in the world. I managed to do some pretty cool things and set some records and raise a family and find my way to really a much better life. I like to do really hard things, and I think there's huge value in taking on hard physical challenges, but also hard business and family-related challenges. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. So I think that gives us a good starting point.

Ed Aloe (04:30):

It seems like you traded one really negative addiction for a completely different positive addiction. When you started running do you think in a way you were running from yourself? I know that sounds weird, but did that motivate you to just get away and escape, but really you were kind of running away from who you were at the time?

Charlie Engle (04:53):

I would say it's the opposite. Anyone who's ever exercised and really focused on physical well-being, in fact, what you do is draw yourself much, much closer to who you really are. So I think, in fact, it's really the opposite of that. Interestingly enough, when I did get sober, there were people in my life, even family, who sort of accused me, if you will, and not so much in a mean way, but of switching addictions. And my joke was always that I've never pawned my computer or sold my car to enter a marathon.  So I'm pretty sure that this is better. And I also would say, and I think this will speak to your audience ... and by the way, everyone listening to this knows what we're talking about when we talk about addiction. Because you either struggled yourself, you have a family member, a close friend, someone who works with you that has struggled with addiction, and you probably know someone who's lost their battle with addiction.

(06:00):

So this is not a topic that people lack knowledge on. I literally spent three years, when I got sober, I went to a meeting every single day without missing a day. I also did a run every day for three straight years without missing one single day. I believe in the power of habits and positive momentum. What I actually learned in that time period was I didn't need to get rid of the addictive part of my nature.

(06:30):

That addictive, obsessive even, part of me is actually what makes me really good at things. As much as we strive for balance in the world today you don't really get good at something, whether it's real estate or a physical attribute or whatever it might be, unless you have at least a period of obsession where it's the first thing you're thinking of when your eyes open in the morning and the last thing you're thinking of when your head hits the pillow. I would posit that, in all likelihood, a lot of the listeners to this have an obsessive nature, if not addictive. So I do believe that I can actually say there's not one single negative side effect to the physical undertaking that I decided to make part of my life in 1992.

Ed Aloe (07:18):

Yeah, I totally agree with that. As an entrepreneur starting this company back in 2008, it did become an obsession for me. And people kind of don't realize, but as the entrepreneur, you never really let go. When you go home at night, no matter if you're not physically in the office, you're always focused and thinking about the company and the business. So I completely agree with you.

Charlie Engle (07:40):

Yeah, I think you have to.

Ed Aloe (07:42):

When I was talking about your running, I think what I was referring to was, were you sort of running from the addiction part of you towards a better you?

Charlie Engle (07:49):

Yeah, I think that's a great way to look at it. And look, I didn't know what was going to happen. What I knew was I was going to die if I kept doing what I was doing. There was simply no doubt about that. So I needed to find this new path.

Ed Aloe (08:06):

When I started this company, you can imagine all the people that were naysayers. Like, "Oh, you're crazy. Why would you do that?" And again, a lot of those people, former coworkers, are kind of doing our old job of what we were doing 20 years ago. Because it comes down to fear, I think, to a certain extent. And the fear of losing you, right? It's a combination.

Charlie Engle (08:28):

Completely. Yeah, well, they're not ready to work on themselves.

Ed Aloe (08:31):

Right.

Charlie Engle (08:31):

I always say a lot of those anchors that I unhooked early in my sobriety, they came back to me, many of them years later, coming to me and saying, "Hey, I need to quit drinking or I need to quit this particular negative habit. Can you help me?" And I think that's what I like to call "attraction rather than promotion." I'm sure it happens in your business too. You leave some people behind because you just have to sometimes. But probably, knowing you for the brief time I've known you, if that person called you up five years later and said, "Hey, I really want some of what you've got and I'm willing to work hard for it. Can you help me?" Then it's like, "All right, let's do this."

Ed Aloe (09:18):

Right. And you'd be amazed when you think about people that have success in any area of their life, they're always willing to help and bring up the folks that they left behind if that's the case. Right?

Charlie Engle (09:29):

Yeah.

Ed Aloe (09:29):

So it's like people try to bring you down early, but then you have an opportunity to actually bring them up later, which is the most rewarding thing. And I'm sure you've done that probably with many, many people who came to you struggling with addiction and now they're not because of you.

Charlie Engle (09:43):

A hundred percent. It's the most satisfying thing. My very first sponsor all those years ago, I was 29, he was in his mid-70s, and he said this one saying to me over and over, and it was very simple."To keep it, you have to give it away." And it stuck with me forever. It's just this concept that whatever gift you have, art, music, business, money, I mean, it could be anything, but whatever you have, if you're not freely offering it up to other people in some fashion, some form, and not expecting a big return on that, then what is the point of accumulating that skill?

(10:27):

There are so many outside pressures on every other aspect of our life, our business, our family, and just the involvement of other human beings, but each of us has this ability to live a healthy, physically productive life. Yet the vast majority of people, especially here in the US, just choose not to.

Ed Aloe (10:47):

A hundred percent. Yep.

Charlie Engle (10:48):

And look, we all grew up running. We're kids, you couldn't stop us from running. And then we go to middle school and some PE teacher uses running as a punishment when we're 12 years old and all of a sudden we hate running.

Ed Aloe (11:02):

That's exactly right. Although I've never been a runner. I've got to admit, I've never loved running. I like the stopping part, as you mentioned as well, a lot more in terms of distance. Charlie, back to the addiction story and you falling into the trap of drugs, I guess in college, maybe just of partying innocently at the beginning and then you kind of fell deeper and deeper into the trap it sounds like. What ultimately motivated you? I think you mentioned your son being born, but was there sort of an epiphany or a defining moment that you remember where you're like, "This is it. Not another day. I can't do this anymore?"

Charlie Engle (11:39):

Yeah. Well, it's very simple. It was a couple of months into my son's life and for no reason, I found myself driving to the worst neighborhood in town. Nothing happened. No argument, no job issue, or whatever. I just ended up in a place I'd been many, many times. And I spent six days basically killing myself with drugs and alcohol. And that binge ended with me handcuffed on the ground with the police searching my car, and there were bullet holes in my car. I mean, this was an epic situation. I just remember, and I said it a moment ago, but I remember that feeling of, I think always wanting something outside of me to force me into making a decision about my own health and my sobriety. I finally realized, at that moment, that nobody was coming to save me. And I think that's true in all things.

(12:41):

Most of us have support systems that include a lot of family and friends who would be more than willing and happy to support us and help us get through a hard time. But the reality is, no matter what the decision is, it has to start with me. So that was the night that I'm sitting there on the ground thinking, "Well, I'm going to die if I keep doing this. I'm not going to raise a son and I'm not going to have a life." And that was the night that I went to an AA meeting, the first real one I'd ever gone to. And I got up the next day and I went for a run.

(13:17):

And that started my three-year streak. And I just knew. I had no plan, no plan at all. And yet, something inside me told me that if I just did those two things every day and I treated that routine like gold and I didn't get lazy, that that routine would yield results. And it did. It changed everything and made me who I am today.

Ed Aloe (13:44):

That's amazing. The story of the bullet holes is amazing too.

Charlie Engle (13:48):

Yeah, they were shooting at me too. They weren't mad at my car, as far as I know. So it was lucky. Lucky and eye-opening.

Ed Aloe (13:57):

So that's, I think, a good segue. Let's talk a little bit about your time in prison. Can you give our listeners a little backdrop of what happened, how you ended up there, and what that experience was like and what you took away from it?

Charlie Engle (14:12):

Absolutely. First of all, none of this is an endorsement of federal prison. I don't recommend it. But look, life had gotten very good for me. I was the senior producer for a TV show called Extreme Makeover Home Edition for many years. I was a top-ranked athlete in the world in my sport. Things were going well. I did this big project with Matt Damon where I ran across the Sahara Desert, and you talked about that a little bit in the intro. And partnered with Matt Damon to create what today is called Water.org, which is the world's largest clean water nonprofit. That nonprofit was born out of the idea that running across the Sahara Desert would be an idea that had any value at all. I always like to remind people that sometimes the things that sound crazy, you're like, "Why would you do that? What's the reasoning behind that?"

(15:10):

Well, the reasoning is you don't know what's going to happen. Very often, if you put yourself out vulnerably to people and allow them an opportunity to follow and to support you, you can lead people to great things. I learned that lesson a long time ago. When I came back from the Sahara I signed with an agent and started doing a lot of speaking. That was in Greensboro, North Carolina, and I was out just running errands one day and I came back to my condo, and six armed federal agents with guns drawn arrested me and put me in the back of a police car, and took me to jail in downtown Greensboro. This was, needless to say, the biggest surprise of my life. I sat there all night, and the next morning I was handed a big stack of papers, and it was a federal indictment.

(16:02):

And, as I like to say, one single IRS agent in Greensboro, North Carolina saw the film Running the Sahara, and he was not impressed. For context, this was early 2010, so that people understand the timing. That'll be important as I continue the story. Ultimately, it was an investigation into my taxes. He saw the movie and he's like, "Oh, I want to see how a runner can afford to do this." And my joke is always that apparently, he'd never heard of Matt Damon because I certainly wasn't funding the thing. [inaudible 00:16:40] There is a memo in my file because this thing actually went to trial and the memo says, "Mr. Engle pays his taxes." And there was one year where, as a self-employed person, I possibly might've underpaid by $3,000, but that was the extent of all that came out of it.

(16:57):

But instead of quitting at that point, this particular agent sent in an undercover ... he used the Patriot Act to actually dumpster dive and surveil my emails and phone and my friends and family. Ultimately, I ended up being the only person in the US at that time, the only borrower, to be charged with overstating my income on a home loan application. By the way, this is obviously an educated real estate crowd, so this was a NINJA loan from 2005. So the loan itself was from the heart of the mess we found ourselves in in 2005. For this supposed crime, I could be sentenced to 20 years in federal prison. Look, I made a decision to fight this at trial, and nobody does that against the feds. There were a variety of reasons, but one of the reasons I made for a good target is I had just enough notoriety to be interesting, but not nearly enough money to defend myself.

(18:09):

I ended up with a public defender, but I had a father in real estate, and I knew enough about real estate after buying and selling my own properties through the years that I needed to fight this thing. So I did make the decision to fight it because I knew I hadn't done it. A couple of interesting nuances I'm just going to interject here because it's worth noting at this point, and all of this kind of just became really evident years later, but in 2010, there was a big push to find people to blame for the mortgage meltdown. Certainly, the government wasn't going to point the finger at itself, who ultimately was the real culprit.

Ed Aloe (18:52):

Yes, as you know, I lived through that world having worked for one of the biggest mortgage banks in the country during the time that it actually failed. The Barney Franks of the world saying, "Everyone-

Charlie Engle (19:04):

Exactly.

Ed Aloe (19:04):

... deserves to be in a home," didn't quite work out because it turns out everyone wasn't responsible enough to be in a home.

Charlie Engle (19:10):

No, it did not. Well, if you just set aside all due diligence and everything else, because I mean, the joke, I wasn't even a real estate person, but the joke was if you had a pulse, you could get a loan.

Ed Aloe (19:21):

Right.

Charlie Engle (19:22):

Ultimately, I think that that turned out to be an understatement. There were loans in dogs' names and whatever. So anyway, long story short, I end up, I go to trial and my mortgage broker gets on the stand and actually admits that he forged the loan application in my name and signed my name to it. For me, it was a NINJA loan. I didn't even know there was a loan application in the package because with that type of loan, I had a good enough credit score and I paid an extra point or point and a half. This was-

Ed Aloe (19:56):

It was a stated income loan? There was nothing-

Charlie Engle (19:58):

... Correct.

Ed Aloe (19:58):

... proven, but the income was stated and the mortgage broker stated an income without your awareness of some amount.

Charlie Engle (20:04):

Exactly.

Ed Aloe (20:05):

Yeah. We used to always joke [inaudible 00:20:07] back then that we would see so many stated income loans with gardeners or landscapers making $10,000 a month. It was always $10,000 a month that the brokers would put on the app, right?

Charlie Engle (20:16):

Yep. Well, this guy put even more than that on mine. I was making decent money, but the fact of the matter is, I didn't do it. People who hear about the trial would say, "Well, that's the end of it then. Right? This guy got on the stand and he admitted to doing that." But the fact is, the closing package sent from my attorney to me, I think most people would be pretty stretched to say that, the average borrower anyway, to say that they page through every page of their fat stack of papers. You trust your closing attorney to tell you where to sign. So anyway, I sign it and I send it back, and that becomes mail fraud. Essentially, I am found guilty of mail fraud and sentenced to 21 months in federal prison in Beckley, West Virginia.

Ed Aloe (21:09):

Wow.

Charlie Engle (21:09):

So I went to prison. My kids dropped me off on Valentine's Day in 2011. I'm not excited. Needless to say, I'm scared and I'm sad and I'm sad for them. I began serving this sentence and I'm also really pissed off. I feel like an injustice has been done. The first guy I really become close to in prison is an early 60s black man who got a crazy-long sentence for a single gram of crack cocaine. Perspective has a way of changing your view of things. I realized that fair or unfair was not the point, and there were going to be a thousand stories in that prison of people who actually were treated more unfairly than I was. You and I talked at the very beginning of this podcast too, about the nature of business. Anyone who doesn't think that the prison industrial complex is not a massive industry is really not paying attention.

(22:14):

That's, again, a podcast for another day. But it was my opportunity to learn this. I recognized that even in this terrible situation, that my happiness was still completely up to me. No one else could determine how I was going to feel, what I was going to do, and what my happiness level was going to be. So I did what I always do. I started running and I started running every day around this little track that was in the rec yard. We would be on lockdown a lot of times, and I would run in place for an hour or five hours in my cell. I looked like a nut, but the joke I always make is that if you're a middle-aged white guy in federal prison, looking like a nut is a pretty good strategy. People will not bother you. They gave me a wide berth.

(23:09):

The next thing that happened though is the most amazing part, and it goes right back to attraction rather than promotion. For a while, people made fun of me. I was this crazy dude, and then my life actually got better in there. I was writing every day. I read 150 books. I got a book club that I started. I'm teaching people about addiction to recovery because there is none of that in federal prison, despite the fact that everybody's in there for drugs.

(23:37):

It's just a crazy, flawed system of punishment that sends people back out into society way worse than they were when they got there. So again, another unintended consequence. But what happened is guys started coming up to me and saying, "Hey, can you teach me how to run?" Basically what they were saying to me was, "I see how you're getting through this and I want to feel that way." And by the time I ended up leaving a year and a half later, I had 50 guys in my running group, and we ran every single day. I had a dozen guys who lost more than a hundred pounds. I had 25 guys doing yoga on the softball field with me three days a week. I mean, it was beautiful.

Ed Aloe (24:21):

Yeah, that's outstanding.

Charlie Engle (24:23):

I'll wrap it up by just saying, back to what my sponsor said, "To keep it, you have to give it away." The day I left prison guys came up to me hugging me and thanking me for what I did for them. But in that same old lesson, I didn't do anything for them.

Ed Aloe (24:37):

I'm a big believer in goal setting, which I'm sure you are too. And I think the effective thing of goal setting, and I learned this process actually from a Tony Robbins seminar, is that you start with the end in mind, kind of like Steven Covey said, but you know, chunk down. So it's like you start with, "Okay, I want to make a hundred million dollars. Oh my God, that's overwhelming." Or, "I'm going to run 135 miles. Overwhelming." But if you sort of chunk it down to, "Okay, what do I need to do this year, the next six months, this quarter, this week, today, to accomplish that goal?" Is that kind of how you look at ... I mean, it's just so daunting when I hear you say you ran 4,500 miles across the Sahara. I'm sure mentally you had to chunk that down into smaller bits, right?

Charlie Engle (25:23):

A hundred percent. I had to focus. Well, it's funny you say it because the first seven days we actually fell apart out there in the Sahara. A lot of it was because I was so attached to the outcome. All I could think about, because I felt a lot of pressure from investors in Hollywood, all I could think about was getting those 4,500 miles behind me. But you know what? That's not how it works, especially not with running. So by day seven, I basically had to just say, "Look, the only thing I'm thinking about this morning is running a marathon. Then I'm going to have a little break at lunch, and then the only thing I'm going to think about this afternoon is running a second marathon." In that way, I was able to slowly move across without getting overwhelmed by the enormity of the project. I think that holds true for almost every big thing that we ever tackle.

Ed Aloe (26:17):

Yeah, absolutely. You have to chunk it down into smaller bits and bring it forward and then, "Okay, what do I need to do today to get through this long-term goal?"

Charlie Engle (26:27):

Otherwise, we would just throw our hands up and just run screaming in the other direction because it's just too much. That is the trick, man. That is the trick.

Ed Aloe (26:37):

Charlie, you talk a lot about suffering and how it's so important for people, and I agree with you. I'm actually a big Bruce Lee fan. I recently got my black belt in Taekwondo at 58, which I'm pretty proud of.

Charlie Engle (26:50):

Nice. Very good.

Ed Aloe (26:51):

It was a nice accomplishment, kind of a COVID ... I turned my garage into a gym and it was a good time to accomplish that goal. But I have a saying in my office, a Bruce Lee saying that says, "Don't pray for an easy life. Pray for the strength to endure a difficult one." Which I really believe is true, and I kind of try to tell my kids this, which they get annoyed with, but life throws curveballs, and you got to be prepared because it's not an easy life.

(27:21):

My oldest son has autism, and so I'll remember the day when he was just over his second birthday and my wife and I were there with a therapist and she gave us the diagnosis and we were just devastated. It's a curveball and life hits you over the head. When things are going great you've got to be aware because somehow life's going to hit you over the head again and give you a reality check, which I think leads to growth. The suffering leads to growth, which is why we're here. Do you kind of want to speak to that and give me your thoughts around that topic?

Charlie Engle (27:57):

Man, you said so much and really beautiful things. I love that Bruce Lee quote, and it's so true. And look, I speak to parents all the time and very often, a lot of wealth groups, a lot of real estate groups, and there's always questions about generational wealth. I am pretty outspoken about, number one, not being a snowplow for your kids. So inevitably a person, someone will raise their hands and say, "But I just want my kids to have it easier than I had when I was growing up." And I always say, "Why? What do you have against your kids?" Right?

Ed Aloe (28:38):

Yeah.

Charlie Engle (28:40):

Because you can ask anybody this direct question. Would you say that the hardships that you faced in your life have made you the person that you are today?

Ed Aloe (28:49):

Yes.

Charlie Engle (28:50):

And everyone says, "Yes, of course, we do." So why would we want to, no, I'm not ... Get your kid out of the middle of the street or don't. I'm not talking about crazy decisions, but normal difficulties. Now, autism, of course, is a whole different challenge, but one that I'm sure just speaking to you for this time, that you've found a way to make it a positive part of your life and to give your son the best life that he can possibly have.

Ed Aloe (29:19):

Yeah, absolutely. When we got that diagnosis, we're like, "Okay, we're not going to deny the diagnosis, but we can defy the ultimate outcome here." And we've thrown everything at it. My wife has worked tirelessly and he's come a really, really long way.

Charlie Engle (29:36):

Amazing.

Ed Aloe (29:37):

Yeah, he's a blessing. Right?

Charlie Engle (29:38):

Yeah.

Ed Aloe (29:38):

We see him as a blessing, and he's opened up parts of me and parts of my personality that probably, emotionally, were locked in and would've never opened up.

Charlie Engle (29:48):

Yeah, no, and it's just your family's path, and to spend or waste time, as I say, bemoaning the path is to ignore the opportunity. And I'm not saying every minute, I'll be honest, my wife had cancer for over six years and we're-

Ed Aloe (30:10):

Oh, wow.

Charlie Engle (30:10):

... we're very much in the heart of a very serious battle for her life and existence. So I live it literally every single day. And I'm not here to tell you that I do a great job of it all the time. I can talk the talk, but it's not always easy, of course, when you're in the middle of it all the time to live up to your own standards and expectations. But just being aware of them is a big part of the challenge. And getting to the heart of things, Ed. Everyone struggles. Success looks different for everybody, but struggle comes in a few basic buckets.

(30:55):

It's physical, it's relationships. There are really just a few things, and almost every problem any of us has fits in those couple of categories. But success, it looks a million different ways. But it's finding a way to realize in your life that there's never going to be a minute where you don't have a big pile of unresolved problems. It just doesn't happen. We all have them. If you're a person out there trying to be your best self and make an impact and support your family and be physically fit and all of those things, you're always going to have a big pile of, I just call them unpaid bills, metaphorically speaking.

(31:36):

You have to learn to be okay with that. You have to find a way to be happy and content and satisfied and know those challenges are always going to be sitting there. Yes, you have to deal with them, but not allowing that to dominate your life. People will watch you and they will emulate your behavior long before they will quote your actual words because that's the true ... Are you doing what you're saying or are you just saying things? And it's just human nature. But it's a beautiful thing. If you're actually doing the thing, you don't even need to tell people. They see it. And it cues them on how they should behave in the same situation.

Ed Aloe (32:21):

Right, exactly. Well, Charlie, I appreciate you taking the time today. I think we need to kind of wrap the show here, but gosh, that was really an exhilarating and interesting conversation. I love your perspective on things. I know this is a real estate podcast, so we kind of went off in a little direction, but you and I both know that mindset is so critically important in how people look at obstacles in their way and overcoming them. And really, like you said, embracing the struggles. Not running from them, but you have to embrace them and you have to say, "Okay, no one's coming here to save me now, but it's up to me and I'm empowered to control it and do what I need to do." And I think that's the message for anything we do in life ultimately.

Charlie Engle (33:06):

That's it. Well, I'm so glad I got a chance to speak with you, and I'll leave you with one final thought, and I say it in every talk I ever give, but what happens to us isn't nearly as important as what we do about it. Good and bad things are going to happen to every single person. Whether it turns out to be something positive, it's completely up to us and how we go about tackling that obstacle. It's part of life and giving yourself over to it is way easier than fighting it because it doesn't matter what situation in your life you're in, if you can boil it down to what's right in front of you, and even though you got two other big problems that are going to be there the next day or the next week, focus on the one that you're dealing with right this minute. And it's shocking how often that will actually set in motion a plan and solution for all the rest of it.

Ed Aloe (34:01):

That's right. There's the outer world that we can't control, but there's the inner world that we 100% can control. And I think that's really the message here. So thanks again, Charlie. Appreciate your time. Charlieengle.com if you want to learn more about what he's up to ... I hope today's show inspired you just a little bit and would like to thank my guests again. I'm excited to bring you more episodes with interesting and informative experts to help you navigate your way to wealth in real estate investing.

Credits (34:44):

Thanks for listening to The Real Estate Wealth Podcast. The Real Estate Wealth Podcast is produced by Gusto, a Matter company. Our producer and audio engineer is Jeanette Harris-Courts, with support from Gabe Gerzon and Susan Rangel. Maia Laperle is our writer. For show notes and more information about this podcast, visit edaloe.com. And for more information about CALCAP Advisors, visit us at www.calcap.com or follow us on Twitter at CALCAP Advisors.

Ed Aloe (35:21):

I'm your host Ed Aloe, and thank you for listening.